In the first part of our interview last week with Konrad Adenauer Foundation (KAF)'s Malaysia representative Peter Schier, we covered its involvement in inter-faith initiatives and the promotion of human rights, the rule of law and democracy. We also dwelt on the controversies KAF found itself in. In this final part, JACQUELINE ANN SURIN asks Schier about KAF's support of the Global Ethic project, the attack on it at the Umno general assembly and the way to greater interfaith understanding.

Yes, an intense but informal, or informal but intense (chuckles) cooperation with the Malaysian Interfaith Network which is headed by Datuk Dr Anwar Fazal, and we have enlarged the original version of this exhibition called World Religions, Universal Peace and Global Ethic. We have included all those faiths which are present here in Malaysia. So, nine faiths in all, indigenous spiritualities, Hinduism, Chinese religion, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism and the Baha'i Faith in order to reflect well the religious diversity of Malaysia. And we have also edited the text, we have changed certain paragraphs which some of our friends in the Malaysian Interfaith Network thought we should change, we did that together.

We edited a chapter on "What is the Global Ethic" in order to make it very clear that the Global Ethic is not a new religion.

Not a new religion. No, no, no, no. We have already enough religions. We do not need a new one. The Global Ethic is just a set of common moral values and ethical standards which are shared by all faiths and all belief systems.

It is also definitely not a secular concept. Because it recognises the important role of religion in setting good ethical norms and promoting good morals and ethics in society. But, the beauty of the Global Ethic concept is, it can also be accepted by agnostics, by people who do not belong to any religion. Because these people, they can subscribe to the fundamental value of the Global Ethic - that means, 'treat others as you would like to be treated' - the so-called golden rule which you'll find in every religion. Do not kill. Respect for life. Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not commit adultery. Very simple but very important common values which all cultures and religions share.

We also have edited a chapter on the so-called golden rule, because I think, we should (pauses) understand that this golden rule is, in fact, the mother of ethics. Every other ethical norm derives from this golden rule, 'treat others as you would like to be treated'.

I think it's very obvious that this is really the basis, the fundamental (principle). And when we look at the quotes from all the different religions, it's stated several times, that the golden rule, for example, Hinduism says, the golden rule is the essence of morality. Judaism says it is the basic law, all the rest is commentary. In Christianity, it says this is the law of God and teaching of the prophets.

Bullshit. Really, bullshit.

When you read the chapter on the Global Ethic in our exhibition booklet, there it is already stated very clearly. These people who spread these allegations and lies, they know better but they want to smear. These people do not even come here and discuss with me in order to know what we really want.

And I am ready to meet all. I'm even ready to talk with extremists. I don't have a problem with it, at all.

We are not working against any religion. Definitely not. I mean, as you know, the Konrad Adenauer Foundation is close to the Christian Democratic Union Party (in Germany). How can we support something which goes against religion per se? No. We recognise the positive role religion has played, and is still playing in order to promote world moral values and ethical standards in society.

On the other hand, we can also not close our eyes to the fact that every religion has been misused by extremists, by politicians to a very bad and large extent. I mean, in Europe, during the Middle Ages, millions of people lost their lives because of irresponsible religious and political leaders who stirred up the famous 30-year war between the two Christian denominations, namely, the Catholics and the Protestants. For what purpose? It only brought suffering!

In fact, you know, it was a complete rape of the religion as such. Religion does not promote violence. No religion promotes violence! No religion promotes war, as I said earlier.

The Global Ethic project mainly concentrates on the commonalities but, as you see in our exhibition booklet, we are also giving very basic information about the different religions. So, you also will be able to learn about the specifics of the nine different religions which we have depicted or described in our exhibition and the exhibition booklet.

So, the aims are two-fold. One, to promote a better understanding about the different religions. Very basic information. No proselytisation! No propaganda! We are against proselytisation.

There have also been people who have said that as an organisation with a Christian background, you know, we might have a Christian agenda. We are not in favour of proselytisation.

Ok, information about the different religions, yes. This should be allowed. But, not aggressive proselytisation. Because that has been the reason for a lot of conflicts and even wars in the past.

I think religious leaders should first concentrate, you know, on the black sheep within their own ranks. They first should try to improve them ... And, produce good Christians, good Muslims, good Hindus, good Buddhists, etc.

And then you leave it to the individuals to decide what religion they want to choose.

Religion is a personal matter. Religion should be a personal matter.

Definitely. Religious freedom is one of the fundamental universal values again enshrined in a number of international conventions.

So, our position is very clear. Just as a Buddhist is allowed to become a Christian, a Christian should also be allowed to become Muslim or Hindu, for that matter. But, naturally then, if the non-Muslims are allowed to change their faith, then also the Muslims should be allowed to change their faith. This is a matter of justice!

If you give one group that right, you also have to give that right to the other group. Otherwise, you would not behave justly. You would not apply justice. This is what justice is all about. And I think justice is one of the main common values also shared by all religions.

I was shocked by the allegations of the Umno delegate from Penang because they do not correspond with what I consider to be the truth. He did not care about the facts but just criticised us for something which we have not done.

In addition to that, it is indeed regrettable that Mr Shahbudin Yahya did not contact my office or myself in order to seek an explanation and clarification regarding our work in Malaysia before making his statements at this important meeting of the leading government party. Let me just mention three points, where Mr Shahbudin was wrong.

To begin with, Professor Dr Hans KŸng who can be regarded as the father of the global ethic concept is not, as Mr Shahbudin alleges, 'a Jew from Germany' but a very famous Roman Catholic theologian from Switzerland who is highly respected by religious leaders of all faiths. In December 2005, Professor KŸng was the keynote speaker at the international workshop on "Teaching Common Values in Formal Education" in Kuala Lumpur organised by KAF in cooperation with the Education Ministry. He also participated in a long dialogue with representatives of all faiths in Malaysia about the global ethic concept and related issues.

Secondly, both the Penang Global Ethic Project and the exhibition World Religions - Universal Peace - Global Ethic are based on the "Declaration Toward A Global Ethic" which was adopted by the Parliament of the World's Religions. Thereby, over 5,000 representatives of the different religions agreed on a set of common moral values and ethical standards which are shared by all faiths.

This declaration was signed by representatives of all world religions. From Malaysia, two prominent Muslims signed the Declaration: Tan Sri Ahmad Sarji Abdul Hamid who is the chairman of Ikim (Institute of Islamic Understanding, Malaysia) and Datuk Dr Ismail Ibrahim, at present the Ambassador of Malaysia to Saudi Arabia and formerly the chairman of the National Fatwa Council and director-general of Ikim.

Thirdly, in the "Declaration Toward A Global Ethic", the signatories stated unambiguously: 'By a global ethic we do not mean a global ideology, or a single unified religion beyond all existing religions, and certainly not the domination of one religion over all others. By a global ethic we mean a fundamental consensus on binding values, irrevocable standards, and personal attitudes. Without such a fundamental consensus on an ethic, sooner or later every community will be threatened by chaos or dictatorship, and individuals will despair.'

In view of the above, it is obvious that the allegations of Mr Shahbudin against the global ethic concept are completely unfounded.

I invite and welcome Mr Shahbudin Yahya and all those who are interested in the work of KAF to fix a dialogue session with me during which we can freely discuss issues related to our projects in Malaysia. Dialogue is the best way to overcome ignorance, misunderstanding, prejudice and intolerance. Dialogue is necessary to prevent conflict and war. Dialogue is the only way by which we can achieve harmony and peace among people of different ethnical, cultural and religious backgrounds.

Racism, religious extremism and the misuse of 'race' and religion for political purposes have been reasons for violent conflicts and even wars throughout human history. If we want to prevent the horrible scenario of a clash of cilivisations, cultures or religions, we need to have more knowledge about each other and more mutual understanding and appreciation.

Yes, let me first come to the Penang Global Ethic project which was organised from Feb 4 to March 10 in Penang together with many local partners, for example Universiti Sains Malaysia (USM), the Malaysian Interfaith Network, the Penang Heritage Trust, the Penang Museum and Art Gallery and Lestari Heritage Network. We still have a very nice website where you can check all that (www.globalethicpenang.net).

It's the most holistic, the most comprehensive inter-faith education project I have done so far. I think it's unique worldwide. And I think Malaysia could be very proud of it but it seems (chuckles loudly) not all of the people are proud of it.

Because this project consisted of showing the exhibition World Religions-Universal Peace-Global Ethic in all the three languages at three different places.

This Global Ethic project also featured the inauguration of the Bahasa Malaysia translation of the exhibition World Religions-Universal Peace-Global Ethic. The exhibition was launched by the Governor (of Penang). At the same time, he also launched the Bahasa Malaysia version of the exhibition booklet.

And then, in addition to that, we had our first Arabic and Chinese calligraphy exhibition on the golden rule. This exhibition is the result of Malaysia's first Arabic and Chinese calligraphy competition on the golden rule which we did together with the Islamic Arts Museum in Kuala Lumpur. The exhibition was inaugurated by the Education Minister. So, we had that exhibition too in Penang.

And then, this Global Ethic project also consisted of the World Religions Walk Penang. We set up, together with our partners in Penang, and I would like to mention here, especially the Penang Heritage Trust and Lestari Heritage Network, and especially our very able and engaged coordinator of the whole project, Mrs. Khoo Salma Nasution.

We established this World Religions Walk Penang, and, you only need to go, in fact, on one street, you know, the Jalan Masjid Kapitan Keling (spreads out brochure to show a map) which we have called for that purpose, "the Street of Harmony", could also call it the "Street of Religious Harmony". And this street which is not very long, you can visit the places of worship of a number of religions. You can visit a Christian church, a Buddhist temple, a Hindu kuil, ...

Naturally, a mosque! Even two mosques, the Kapitan Keling Mosque and the Acheen Street Mosque, and you can also see three Chinese temples which represent a mixture of Confucian, Taoist and Buddhist belief systems.

So, in a very small place, I mean, within only minutes of walking, you can visit the places of worship of various religions. This is very unique! You do not find this in many places in the world (in a reverential tone).

This is why we were so happy, you know, to find the cooperation of the people and the number of organisations in Penang to do this. We organised tours, organised by the Penang Heritage Trust, not only for tourists but also for interested citizens of Penang. And, very important for school children, ya, to go to the various places of woship, visit these places, and have the opportunity to talk with the caretaker or with the imam or with the priest or the monk. And ask these people questions with regard to the faith of that place of worship. So the students or even adults would be able to get some practical knowledge about the religion.

So, what happened? After the Penang Heritage Trust organised tours for a number of schools and there was one agama (religious) school, the oldest agama school of Penang, which participated in this World Religions Walk, which sent their students to participate. In fact, it was the first school to participate!

After some of these tours were organised, some narrow-minded people apparently approached the Education Department of Penang and by giving apparently one-sided information, convinced the director of the Education Department to issue a circular asking the schools which had participated and other schools to stop participating in that programme.

(Pauses) When the Chief Minister got to know about it, I think he got furious and asked the director of the religious department to withdraw the circular but the damage which had been done seems to be quite severe because this programme of organising tours for school children has not been taken up again. Although, I want to say this very clearly, we are ready to, to fund it in future. So, it is not a matter, you know, of not having funds, but it is a matter of people apparently now being frightened and therefore not willing to revive a very good programme.

First of all, the schools naturally also have to take an initiative in order to ask for these tours to be organised. But, on the other hand, it would also need the input of the Penang Heritage Trust to offer these tours. And I haven't heard that they are offering it anymore.

But, I have told the chairman that we are ready to fund it. So, it is not a matter of funding. I don't know what it is.

But, clearly the directive from the state education department has been withdrawn?

This is what the Chief Minister asked the director of education department to do. But I don't know if it has been actually withdrawn. I'm not so sure.

But (pauses) you know how it works. The circular has been issued. Now, everybody fears and to me it is like a 'sensitive' issue.

The argument apparently given is that it is un-Islamic to allow especially Muslims to visit the places of worship of other religions. I think this is just another example of er, narrow-mindedness on the side of (pauses) some self-styled Muslim leaders. You can quote me. This is really ridiculous.

But, the problem does not end here. Because, I also, or we also wanted to have a permanent place where we could hold the exhibition. The idea is also to

promote something like religious tourism, ya ... where people can get a basic understanding about the different religions and the common values they share, and then after that, they go on the

tour!

So, what we found out, what we identified as an ideal place was the Penang Heritage Centre in 116 & 118 Lebuh Acheh ... to put the exhibition there, show it to the public, to the tourists, to the schoolchildren, and then from there, you could start, you know, to do the world religions walk.

You could even visit the Penang Islamic Museum which is very close to the Penang Heritage Centre.

A letter was written to those responsible for the Penang Heritage Centre and our local partners asked for permission to set it up there, and the reply was, 'No', they cannot permit the exhibition because it is un-Islamic.

But, these people don't say why it is un-Islamic. I don't understand what is un-Islamic about an exhibition which has been shown at the UN headquarters, which has been shown at so many places, which does not proselytise, which does not make propaganda for any religion, which does not promote secularism but just the good common values.

(In fact), the opposition to the exhibition and against the World Religions Walk in Penang does not seem to reflect the (sentiments of the) majority of Muslims in Malaysia.

According to the representative public opinion which we funded (entitled, 'Muslim Identities Public Opinion Survey in Peninsular Malaysia' coordinated by Dr Patricia Martinez), 79% of Malaysian Muslims are of the opinion that they should learn about other religions in Malaysia as well. This means that those who are against (the) Penang Global Ethic Project only represent a minority of about 20%.

In a democratic society, the will of the majority should prevail.

We have proposed to the Education Ministry to include the teaching of basic knowledge of the world religions and of the common ethical standards and moral values shared by the different faiths in the curricula of the primary and secondary schools ...

If we want to build bridges and to arrive at a better understanding, I think the best way is to include, to incorporate basic knowledge of world religions and the common values, in national education curriculum.

We have to address, we have to target our children and grandchildren in order to build a better future. A future which is more harmonious. This is why I believe education is the focal point, is the most important point. And I would wish that in the last year which I will be here in Malaysia - I will leave Malaysia definitely middle of next year - we will be able to make a step forward to include this in the curriculum but in view of the experience I have had so far, I am not too optimistic.

But, let me tell you that this point - the incorporation of basic knowledge of world religions and of the common ethical standards and moral values shared by the different faiths in national education curricula was included in the Larnaca Action Plan which is the result of the second Asem Interfaith Dialogue meeting which took place in Larnaca, Cyprus from July 3 to 5. Malaysia was one of the

co-organisers together with Cyprus.

And another very important decision was to explore the possibility of setting up national interfaith dialogue groups. This is very important with regard to the interfaith commission project which has been started here in Malaysia. Malaysia would be the first country, no, the second after the Philippines, I think, to have such an interfaith commission but in view of the resentment at the moment, I think we would still need some time to arrive at that.

Regarding the proposed interfaith commission, we got an interesting result in the representative public opinion poll which was conducted amongst Malaysian Muslims (in Peninsular Malaysia) in December 2005; 76% of those questioned said that Islam should be part of an Interfaith Council if something like that is established in Malaysia.

This is another result of that poll which indicates that the majority of Malaysian Muslims are in fact more open-minded

and more moderate than those who pretend to speak on their behalf.

Religion is mainly not about how you dress, how you keep your hair and beard, what you eat and what you drink. But

religion is mainly about cultivating and promoting good moral values based on the fundamental ethical standards which

God has revealed again and again to all his prophets all over the world.

These basic ethical standards are for example, the golden rule 'Treat others as you would like to be treated', 'don't kill', 'don't steal', 'don't lie', 'don't commit adultery'.

These ethical standards do have a very special significance because they have been revealed to all prophets of God. They have the character of an absolute supreme rank. If religious leaders and followers would have concentrated on cultivating and promoting these basic ethical standards, which we are promoting through our exhibition and other means, we would live in a harmonious and peaceful world today.

Unfortunately, because of ego, ignorance, greed - greed for power, for money, for lust - and because of hatred, a significant part of humankind has been unable to live according to the fundamental ethical commandments of God. That is the basic reason of human suffering since Adam and Eve. It sounds very simple but it is very profound.

• Sharing universal values